- This topic has 35 replies, 2 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 9 months ago by Lin.
June 18, 2016 at 4:03 pm #9743
By Noah Berlatsky . . . “He is a lifetime sex registrant. That doesn’t expire. Just like what he did to me doesn’t expire, doesn’t just go away after
[See the full post at: No evidence registries increase public safety]
June 18, 2016 at 8:37 pm #9744
I’m just curious, after reading this, why wouldn’t they abolish all this, considering there is so much evidence showing how much all this does not work. Its not like taking our freedom away from us is enough. I just don’t get it.
June 18, 2016 at 9:20 pm #9745
June 18, 2016 at 9:30 pm #9746
I want to say something about this topic but I don’t want it to be misconstrued although perhaps the only way to say it is going to be the way in which I do….
I’m so sick and tired of hearing about someone who commits an offense “shifting the blame”. Reason being is because we double standard everything in this country.
We tell people not to drink and then drive because the alcohol will impair judgement on the road. Ummm…if alcohol can impair one’s judgement while in the process of driving, doesn’t that also apply to how it can impair one’s judgement to make him/her assume he/she CAN drive safely because they are unaware of how intoxicated they are?
Many a times I’ve listened to friends say “I’m ok to drive. I’m perfectly fine.” I of course did not allow it to happen at the times when I was there to drive or call a cab on their behalf.
So, if we are TAUGHT that alcohol and drugs impairs a person’s judgement, why then, when that person sobers up and is apologetic after realizing his/her intoxication brought about poor judgement, is that person told they are “shifting the blame” and/or “minimizing the offense”?
This society we live in is a double edged sword and so long as people are A) Brainwashed by law enforcement and B) Frightened into agreeing with every law and every thing that law enforcement says, we’ll never be a forgiving society. Ever!
What Brock said is not a exactly a ‘cop out’, it’s a fact. College students party. They party hard! Harder than we are willing to believe or accept. And yes, crap happens and many times it’s not because of someone’s devious mindset, it’s because in that moment when you’re so drunk or high that you think you’re Superman and can leap off of a bridge and fly, you do it.
Only when something like THAT happens do we all say “oh, poor guy. Was so messed up he actually thought he could fly”. But if he unintentionally has sex with a passed out fellow student under that same influence that would make him think he could fly – he’s a MONSTER!!
I understand that real raped and assaults happen, but I’m also on to how overly dramatic this “free” country makes sex out to be. It’s mind boggling.
No one can really enjoy sex anymore. I was not around to see the “flower child” era of the 60’s and 70’s but what happened to us since then? How did those wild, crazy burn outs become such goodie-two-shoes adults that later taught their kids to fear their own shadows about sex and sexuality? WHAT HAPPENED??!!!
June 18, 2016 at 11:51 pm #9747
The ethics of Police deception and cover-ups. That in itself is good reading when police can cause a crime to happen by the use of deception to deceive the minds of just about everybody on the planet if they wanted too.
Tara says’ she’s curious and Masetro seems to have his own frame of mindset but still everyone has their own opinion about all this registry stuff.
Sure they will put us on the registry. Why not as I’m sure that makes them a bit more in control. You see a lot of this registry thing is about control. This whole thing and this recidivism rate is a bunch of garbage to make the let the public understand or those in high places know that the government have real thinkers that crunch these figures to make themselves look better to the public eye.
Its just really astonishing that the sex registry came about because of Adam Walsh or this Megan’s law. You didn’t have a public registry back in the 50’s or 60’s.
Do they want to give sex offenders a permanent guilt complex for saying some bad words on the computer or talking giving a sexual story?
Folks it is physical impossible to have sex with a fictitious teenager. Thru the internet with todays Smart phones and wire tapping’s and conspiracy theories’ and all that stuff they will try and hustle on someone just to prove their point.
I took my guilty plea so does that mean I or others are guilty or that all are guilty of something they just haven’t got caught or in a circumstance to get caught.
We could talk about how just we as human beings are but we can also talk about who dominates us and stigmatizes us in all this also. Bottom line is you either get real about all this or take a chill pill. Just my opinion.
June 19, 2016 at 12:17 am #9748
I used to be a practicing alcoholic (sober 13 years now) and when I was younger and passed out people (other boys) did some humiliating stuff to me. I was never raped but one time someone wrote, “I’m a fag f**k me here” with an arrow pointing to my butt. When i sobered up and my friend cautiously told me about the message on my back you can imagine how ashamed i felt. Of course i was angry at the bully who did it but i really blamed myself for being so drunk that i was incapable of protecting myself. Plus, being gay, it DID really upset me. But if I hadn’t been drunk that never would have happened.
If college is so dangerous with this so called “rape culture” maybe it would be a good idea to not drink oneself into unconsciousness? Actually it is NEVER a good idea to drink til you pass out…but esp. at frat parties/bars/public places. Common sense, really.
I see your point Maestro but think that if one makes the decision to drink to intoxication then one needs to accept the consequences of their behavior..With Brock Turner’s case maybe the victim also needs to take a hard look at her own behavior and irresponsibility. Just a thought.
June 19, 2016 at 1:21 am #9749
Unfortunately laws are made on emotions, not facts. Politicians earn votes by catering to emotional demands. That is why we fight this system in the courts. Justices are not worried about votes and are more likely to consider the facts and constitutionality or these laws. When it is abolished it will be done by the courts.
June 19, 2016 at 2:37 am #9750
The sex offender registry demonizes a human being; it takes away the humanity from a person. Add to that the restrictions in finding a place to live, work, have friends, even family, etc. and you basically leave very little to feel a human being.
June 19, 2016 at 6:40 pm #9751
Despite how it makes us feel, what it does to us, doesn’t matter to them. I know several professional people who find it outrageous how we are treated. A person can only take their actions for so long. Then, despite how against it we are, we begin to lose hope. Feel as I said before, that it feels hopeless. Society doesn’t understand because it doesn’t want to. No matter how many positive things a person does afterwards, it’s like it doesn’t even matter to them.
June 19, 2016 at 9:30 pm #9752
And that’s just it! We don’t hold people accountable for their own actions in drinking til they pass out. Because this woman was taken advantage of by someone while passed out, she’s a victim. But had she passed out behind the wheel and killed/maimed someone, she’s the perpetrator and will be FORCED by the court to take a drug/alcohol abuse class.
But everyone is patting her on the back and no one is claiming that SHE has an alcohol problem (even if she truly doesn’t but we all know how the courts operate. The first time you ever go out to celebrate your 21st bday an drink too much they consider you as ‘having a problem’)
June 19, 2016 at 11:00 pm #9753
I hope this whole registry and supervision (which is really unconstitutional as it is added punishment) are abolished soon. How do they expect a person to function with so much burden?! Those who are in the post release supervision have to deal with people from probation who are constantly trying to prove that those “sex offenders” are worse. They constantly harass for even for reasons like not being able to pay the monthly fee for not being employed. I guess they feel like a social worrier by kicking on those already condemned and beaten down.
Give me back my humanity, oh you puritan gods.
June 20, 2016 at 1:09 am #9754
No evidence that sex registries increase public safety, what… you mean all this time we were deceived. That means we have to walk around with this burden on our back WOW
Now we all can make lite or dark of this experience but who wants a monkey on their the rest of their life?
Sure there is no evidence but the biggest market, if you want to call it a market or enslavement, in all these sex registries I would have to say is the internet entrapment. Someone correct me if I am wrong about this.
Man’s ways do not always solve man’s problems. Think about it this way, if the internet was never created you would never of had this problem but police figured out how to use it for their finical gain also letting the public know that they were protecting and serving.
The thing about all this is Warnings are better than actually pulling the wool over someone’s eyes. What will man come up with next that is as devious as these internet sex sting operations.
June 20, 2016 at 2:36 pm #9755
I agree with James. And I hate to beat the same old drum, but the reason these police “stings” exist is that some 5-4, 3-2, 2-1 conservative court found a way around entrapment laws not based on sound legal principals, but the individual judge’s political ideology, which NEVER, EVER should figure in ANY court decisions. The courts are supposed to be the “non-political branch of government,” but Nixon, Reagan, and George W. Bush purposely sought out judges for appellate courts based on readings of their decisions. Any hint that decisions by these judges met with these presidents’ political points of view regarding the old Puritan way of severely punishing criminals and may the Constitution be damned if it counters their beliefs on crime and punishment, is what has led to police entrapping people on the Internet.
So the police pretend to be some minor online, and they induce an adult to show up some place and nothing happens because it was a sting and the adult is punished based on “intent” because he had condoms on him? Who was the victim? Are these police officers really proud of what they are doing? Do they really feel good about themselves? How about the DA’s and the federal government bureaucracies that provide funding for these so-called “Internet Crimes Task Forces?” Inducing someone to show up to have sex with a minor and then punishing him for the rest of his life for merely showing up and it is a sting is right? This is really the American way? Really?
The crime in this scenario is the way the defendant is punished. He goes on a sex offender list for “attempt,” not “really attempting” by physically trying to have sex with a minor, but just by what he said online and showing up with condoms. So he’s punished the same way as if he was on top of a real victim trying to have sex? Sure, showing up someplace and thinking you are going to have sex with a minor should involve some type of criminal sanction, but it should be based on what REALLY happened, the individual’s past, and a full evaluation to determine if he is a real threat to society. That would be REAL justice, not retribution and punishment based on a Puritan version of Christianity.
The same goes for viewing immages or videos on the Internet. One state defines child pornography as “depictions of nude persons under the age of 18 in lewd and lascivious poses, a focus on the genital area, or such persons being molested or having or simulated or real sex with another individual or individuals. This is a REASONABLE definition of what constitutes child pornography. But other states only require mere partial nudity to meet the standard for child pornography, but the person who has mere possession of nudist colony-type depictions is punished as though he had the same thing as in the first definition. In both cases the guilty person goes on a public sex offender site as having possession of child pornography. This is a just punishment? This protects society? From what? From who?
In the situation James talks about and the one I mention, both are CLEARLY situations of a system that has gotten out of hand. Add the Romeo convictions, streaking, and public urination and the sex offender laws and registries have become a fiasco. This needs to stop. The only way it will is through courts willing to follow the rule of law and the Constitution as it is worded and not clever, made up reasons for reading intent that isn’t there in the words of the Constitution such as why what James is talking about isn’t entrapment, and mere nude depictions of someone under 18 is child pornography.
June 20, 2016 at 2:57 pm #9756
I hope the American people finely see the light about “Blind Justice: with this sex offender registry. I ran across an article that helped me cope a bit more with this issue and I’d like to share this with all you folks on here.
http://harvyoder.blogspot.com/2015/11/we-are-all-sex-offenders.html. I think this blog of his says it all and yes we can reach out farther on this issue and see how more devious this registry is than what is actually going on in todays’ nation.
But as some of you all have said lets take God out of this but if we do that it would be like the blind leading the blind. So I think we are all sex offenders in one way or another.
June 20, 2016 at 4:27 pm #9757
It is far too easy to base things in emotions rather than deal with factual evidence on argumentive subjects. As offenders, you have to ask yourself if you are using your own logic and beliefs over actual facts or you would run the risk of becoming complicit just as those whom seek to shrink and thwart your peers and available audience. It is clearly obvious that the registry has implicit traits of punishment and that it is meant to devalue any progress made on part of the registrant. It doesn’t take a teenage thought or gumption to realize that. What it takes is determined and streamlined organization to fight against any injustice aggrieved. Make no war or indifferent distinction of each other and don’t hail yourself into hierarchy among your brethren. We are only human and only one man can do so much!
June 20, 2016 at 5:38 pm #9758
Although I emphasize with the victim my hope is she will realize how alcohol factored into her assault. If only there was a fraction of the “rape culture” outrage (which i personally think is a crock) directed at the “drinking culture” because i think booze is one of the worst drugs ever when it gets abused.
June 20, 2016 at 6:36 pm #9759
Exactly why I keep saying Probation needs to be abolished. Not just for sex offenders but for all.
If you commit a crime that can get you 5 yrs in prison but the D.A. allows you to plead out to only 2 yrs, then we should be able to do the 2 yrs and walk out completely free. There is no need for 5 yrs of probation with a suspended sentence of the remaining 3 that they say we “owe”. If we “owe’ more time, why let us plea out to less?
We will forever have a criminal record (unless it’s a petty crime that can eventually be expunged) so why probation on top of having our lives ripped out from under us with incarceration?
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ JOB SECURITY. Nothing more, nothing less. Security for a job that never needed to exist in the first place.
Probation causes people to not be able to move forward. I’ve been on probation for 8 yrs with 2 more to go and these people treat me as if my crime happened 11 mins ago rather than 11 years ago. ENOUGH!!!
I have a small business/hobby of buying/selling/trading classic movie memorabilia. It makes me some extra cash from time to time. And I go to various film conventions on the East Coast to buy/sell/trade. This is something I’ve been doing since I was 19 yrs old and never had a problem with breaking any laws while on these trips.
WHY AM I ASKING PERMISSION FROM A PAID BULLY TO BE ABLE TO CONTINUE DOING SOMETHING THAT KEEPS ME HAPPY???
At this very moment I am waiting to hear from my P.O. if I have been granted permission to attend a classic film con in PA in July.
I’ve already invested in it because I had to pay for my vendor tables asap or miss out. I’ve been granted in the past to go but each probation officer does things his/her own way.
So if I do NOT get the “ok” to go, I’m out $500 in vendor table costs that is NON-REFUNDABLE.
I’m sick to death of this nonsense! I may be an ex offender but I work and I pay taxes and my taxes are helping to line the pockets of a bully system that tells me how I can live….FOR A DURATION OF TIME…and then they say “Have a nice life! Good luck!” SCREW THEM!
June 20, 2016 at 8:15 pm #9760
I know how you feel. We all feel that way. Sometime, the days are easier than others.. But, still tough…
My best advice is to know that there are people here who know your struggles and our best option is to ban together and make positive changes.. The fight will be long but together we can get some common sense back in to the laws that are now affecting so many people for know known empirically proven reason.
June 20, 2016 at 9:14 pm #9761
I apologize if I sounded as though I’d given up. I haven’t. After coming on here, I’ve realized that there are others going through and feeling the same things. Its a bit of relief, at times, to come on here and know that others feel what I feel. I just want to thank everyone. Especially to those who head this site.
June 21, 2016 at 12:56 am #9762
Emil there are times in this ordeal when we all have to be strong, bold, and positive. Sure all this sex registry makes no sense, and even for those that have to go on probation after being in prison is a bit more of a punishment. When I see my probation officer, and I have 8 more yrs. to go, I tell him like it is. I fear no evil and a lot of us on here should have patients .
Maestro what can I say. I to am a vendor and at the start of my probation when I would travel into other countries of my state. I had to report in to State Police upon leaving and traveling home. Since I passed a polygraph test my probation office told me I don’t have to check in at different Police stations as before.
I know how much of a pain that can be as word does leak out and they would rather make a person on the sex registry more of a notorious child monster than Al Capone was a gangster.
To put it all in emotional an perspective The sex registry tears a person down rather than builds them up. American Government thinks you are a negative piece of waste and you can’t function without them always in your business. I think they call that being a busybody and cops and government are good at that if you are on their radar.
June 22, 2016 at 12:21 am #9763
Meanwhile, nearly five millions illegal aliens, many of whom have committed felonies in the US, including actual rape, murder, etc. , are eligible for amnesty through the US government. While US citizens who have already fulfilled their sentences are dragged on and on in the legal quagmire and stripped off of their Constitutional rights!
June 22, 2016 at 5:55 am #9764
No evidence exists that any current strategy utilized after the fact does anything to prevent future incidents. This whole idea of preventing another offense is bullshit. How about after the first time efforts shift to making sure no one else ever gets to a first time offense?
June 22, 2016 at 5:55 am #9765
No evidence exists that any current strategy utilized after the fact does anything to prevent future incidents. This whole idea of preventing another offense is bullshit. How about after the first time efforts shift to making sure no one else ever gets to a first time offense?
June 22, 2016 at 3:32 pm #9766
If I may, please allow me to reiterate a point I have been trying make for about two years now and that is that the registry is NOT meant to provide public safety, and on A broader note, it is NOT meant to be constitutional either. Indeed, the registry was built to do just what it is doing: disenfranchise the registrant, banish the registrant, shame the registrant, nullify his/her existence, break up families, prevent loving relationships and basically destory the registrant’s life. These my friends are the real reasons for residency/registration laws. Ray Charles could see through the “If it saves one child” or “Tool for law enforcement/families” smoke screen proponents throw out to the media. As to the constitutionality of these laws, anyone with half a brain knows regisrty/registraion is PUNISHMENT, I say it’s PRESECUTION but that’s just me, but unless you can somehow convince the five US Supreme Court Justices to strike down Smith V Doe, you’re just trying to drink the Ocean dry my friends. Buenos Tardes mi amigos.
June 22, 2016 at 9:28 pm #9767
I feel, in society, just one of us speeking up will go no where. If more of us, stood united, we may get somewhere. Only when they realize that we won’t be made to be quiet. For those of whom never went to prison, they were affected to. We have friends and we have families. I get loud when it comes to my own children. Despite me giving them up due to various reasons, they don’t need to view the impact all this has on others around me.
June 23, 2016 at 1:53 am #9768
Maestro were only human. Sure I want everybody to follow their dream. Now RSOL are advocates for us and they do care and their are a lot of people that care and know that the some people on the registry shouldn’t be on their but it is what it is.
Well it is what it is until it is what it taint. I know we all worry to some degree but worrying is counterproductive. Shoot I’m going to make some kind of mistakes the rest of my life. Weather its saying something out of line or whatever but when someone such as (example= law enforcement= wolf in sheep’s clothing) they will tell the public one thing and set up a sting operation with another.
I wouldn’t worry so about much about these sex registry things, they have already dug their hole with it and American Public is waking up to a lot of this deceptive b. s. that only makes their code of Ethics more tarnished. Police are devilish.
Remember they were on the internet to protect and serve but they never protected and served me or those others caught up in all this. Now I hope you get to go to your event as I know I would be a bit upset if my p. o. told me I couldn’t go to an event and I do about 8 of my events during the summer.
Maestro their is a difference of being evil and being deceived so don’t give up and it never hearts to put a little love in your heart.
June 23, 2016 at 9:52 am #9769
That is exactly right. Their are 450,000 of us not including friends and family supporters. We have the potential to be a very loud and noticeable voice, if we could just unite.
June 23, 2016 at 9:55 am #9770
You did an excellent job at pointing out the effects of the registry. I believe the reason’s behind the registry are much more simple. It makes money and it makes it look like legislatures are doing something.
June 23, 2016 at 7:14 pm #9771
Unfortunately folks we live in a newly evolving Puritan society where people are quick to judge and persecute others….until by gosh something happens to them. Things will change as more and more families are hit directly by registry and incarceration and the US goes back to a corrections model of punishment that went away in the mid 90’s. Until then let’s keep plugging away.
June 23, 2016 at 8:03 pm #9772
Fred, thats what goes on in mymind constantly. Thinking of way that we could all unite on this. As I said before, one person will not get the eyes/ears of society. Not on this cause. We must unite.
June 24, 2016 at 10:47 am #9773
the logical mind
If you will, please allow me to once again try and put forth what I believe to be an accurate assessment of SO registry/registration and that is that SO registration/registry was designed to do just what is doing, i.e., banish the registrant, disenfranchise the registrant, stigmatize the registrant, shame the registrant, break-up the family of a registrant or prevent him/her from having one, psychologically frustrate the registrant, set the registrant up for failure. SO registration/registry was never meant to be CONSTITUTIONAL, never meant to provide PUBLIC SAFETY because it has absolutely no PUBLIC SAFETY components to it whatsoever and I would challenge any or all proponents of SO laws to show with clear and convincing evidence just how SO laws provide PUBLIC SAFETY. Blog it, put it in a news paper article or some other media but come forth with something, anything to justify these laws—I’m begging you! With a well reasoned, logical argument, hell, you might even convince me that these laws are good. But right now SO laws look like the Salem Witch hunts of the 1600s, treatment of the Jews by Hitler and his Nazi thugs in the 1930s, the internment of Japanese Americans after Pearl Harbor 1941, the search for Communists in the 1950s, I could go on but I think you get the point. Everyone knows SO laws are not only UNCONSTITUTIONAL but also just flat out WRONG, and really one could say they boarder on EVIL!
June 24, 2016 at 12:43 pm #9774
Increased punishment for me and my family . I was a stupid teen and the girl lied about her age now not only did I do three years in prison and three on parole now I got to register for 25 years which turned in to life when does the chance to me normal again come. My wife a kids all have to deal with this list and teir system that makes it hard to be a parent with little involvement with their teachers and for me to find a place to live and work. This paper registry dose not stop me from committing a crime. i do with my actions to grow up and my thoughts of a normal life and my emotions toward a older woman my wife . I don’t find teenagers attractive any more because I am not a teenager. Therefore kids need to be teached not only how to have safe sex but to not have sex until their of legal age. Preventing sex crimes starts with social change of what’s cool and what’s not. I teach my teens it not about be popular its about living our own life not trying to impress others like I tried. All this registration dose is increase the chance of failure in it working the justice system makes money off of me and many others to put up a public witch hunt. Its been 12 years sense my crime and I don’t have a bone in my body that would repeat it . so when do I ask dose my social change occur and I can stop being so popular.
June 24, 2016 at 2:37 pm #9775
Everything you say is correct. That is why more of us MUST begin challenging our cases in court. The perfect time to do this is AFTER incarceration and AFTER probabtion. When your sentence is done, it should be done and there are many judges across the country, when presented with a strong case and sees the process laid out in front are usually dumb-founded at how our judicial system has been twisted and turned in order to shame and punish a specific set of citizens. Our cases, my included, are strong and are winning relief. The main reasons why this is possible is because “ex post facto” (you cannot continue to add punitive sentences AFTER a person is convicted) is a well known, universally accepted, cornerstone of the American Justice System. Also most Judges are not aware what is going on. It must be explained to them by a good lawyer who knows his stuff. Finally, the research that is making its way into the mainstream is unanimous that the registry is not working well for anyone and is making everyone less safe. If you are waiting for the laws to change and letter to arrive that says, “sorry, nevermind” you will take this to your grave. That is NOT how our justice system works. Yes we do change laws but in order for you to gain relief for your case you must go and fight your case. As more and more of us take on the challenge, and win we are beginning to make a statement that those in power will one day have to acknowlege: Lifetime registries and all that come with them don’t work. Educate yourself, fight your case. It is your best hope.
June 25, 2016 at 12:08 pm #9776
There’s only one thing I disagree with- who determines “legal age”? It’s 16 in CT, 17 in NY and 18 in RI. Just for examples. Nature and natural instinct has been forgotten because of modern mankind. I don’t give a single damn about how modernized we are as a society, no one can change the NATURAL course of the human animal instinct. By NATURE males attract to youthful, fertile females (even if reproducing is not part of your plan) and so when the 17 yr old hooks up with the very mature for her age looking 14 yr old, because of NATURAL ATTRACTION, we want to punish him for it.
I have an issue with this. And always have, even when I was a teenager who was attracted to and many times romantic with OLDER women.
We are a society in denial. We want formulas and cookie cutter ways of life. Then count me out because I’m more realistic than that. I am not encouraging adults to go hook up with super young teens, I’m just offering food for thought here. It seems even some of us RSO’s are taking the bait that someone who is 15 LOOKS 15 as if age has a certain PHYSICAL APPEARANCE attached to it.
I know people who are 22/23 yrs old and are fed up with being treated like they are 12 when they try to enter a bar establishment for happy hour. Some older people appear young, some younger people appear older. And the same goes for how each individual carries themselves. The girl I was with that I got in trouble for because she was 1 yr under the legal age, could easily have passed for 19 by her physical appearance and her maturity that she displayed.
The same way we as RSO’s get blanketed and bunched into one basket, we ALL do the same to certain age groups as if we live in caves and teenagers only look like the ones we see on kid’s TV shows on Nickelodeon or something.
Let’s get real and stop worrying about what people think of being realistic. Sometimes the truth stings a bit and those who don’t like the truth will make you feel bad for speaking it.
Make me feel bad. It’s not going to change my realistic POV on human nature.
June 28, 2016 at 10:13 pm #9777
I fully agree with you that it should be done when our sentence is over. This is why I’ve lost hope. Because mine should have been done two years ago. But just when I was looking to finally be off, I am told, they turned it to a life time of parole. Which, in turn, made me lose A LOT of hope.
June 30, 2016 at 2:48 pm #9778
You are definitely not alone in your feelings that this is a “witch hunt”. I’ve often said the same thing. The other thing I’ve come to realize, it’s also mirrors the smokers; not many want to stand up for them since they are viewed as being the “pariahs of society”. Even the ones who feel this treatment is the wrong thing to do (smoking bans or SORA) are fearful of saying anything as they might be persecuted as well. Not to mention the politicians who love grandstanding on the issues.