This is their way of sticking up for federal law as is today and possibly making the other Courts of Appeals work on it before it gets to be presented again to SCOTUS for hearing should SCOTUS deny the petition (maybe even after Justice Kennedy has retired and a new SCOTUS Justice is in play which would mean the USG’s playing prevent defense in the meantime until such time).

You can certainly see where SCOTUS would have expected this reaction from the SG. You can also see where, given Packingham and the acknowledgement of misleading data, the misleading data in this SG document would lead SCOTUS to hear it anyway. You cannot back away from that misleading data point now since you just announced it is misleading and continuing to give punishment out after all is said and done with sentencing. Justice Kagan was a SG once and would understand this perspective all too well. I bet the SG document went under some serious revisions post-Packingham decision.

I pray SCOTUS still hears Doe v Snyder to clear the air of any ambiguity.

The circling of the wagon has begun! Of COURSE they want to protect this corrupt status quo AND the millions of security theater jobs the AWA and Megan’s Law have created over the past 23 years.

This are going to get UGLY if SCOTUS is indifferent and dismissive of Snyder.

The SG knows fully well that the Snyder challenge could be the beginning of the end for the registry, also.

if they don’t accept this case I see several states repealing a bunch of laws and losing the fed gov. hit list bribe money as it would be way to costly for states to go back and look at each case and see what set of unconstitional laws one would should be under.

I find it interesting that the brief basically argues the case (without a counter argument) to petition for denial of certiorari. In my opinion, this brief actually makes the case FOR certiorari because it contends in many points that there is wide disagreement of whether this case would apply to other states’ SORNA schemes. That is precisely why the Supreme Court should take the case; when there is disagreement among lower courts and legislatures. The court needs to resolve disagreement in a number of areas, mainly:

1) Whether in-person reporting constitutes an affirmative restraint. Either it does or it doesn’t. The frequency a registrant must report should be irrelevant

2) Whether public notification constitutes punishment. It’s irrelevant whether the tier class or the photo of the offender is public or not. The broader question is a matter of disagreement and needs to be resolved

3) Whether range restrictions of any sort as a whole pass the test brought forth in Smith. Almost every state has range restrictions of some sort; some more restrictive than others and this has been widely disagreed on across jurisdictions. Many localities have city ordinances that go beyond state law as well

4) Whether the test in Smith was improperly administered in light of new evidence showing more weight to significant factors

I believe that Justice Kennedy’s opinion in Packingham recognized these problems in his parenthetical statement and is inviting this case or one similar to be granted cert. Since 4 other justices joined his opinion, it’s safe to assume that they were joining in that invitation.

Lastly, the court must recognize any time they are reviewing a petition for certiorari whether it will prevent further litigation in the lower courts and further requests for certiorari or not. In this case, I think it’s a no-brainer that if they resolve this question now, it will silence most litigation. There is a high possibility that states and local jurisdictions will attempt to find ways around a decision in this case though.

This is the case we have all been impatiently waiting for! It’s time!

In my opinion though, the entire fight is not completely over if we get the preferred decision in this case. When it comes to housing and jobs, many still conduct bg checks and when our histories come to light, the problems there still exist. While this fight would be more along the lines of convicted felons in general, I believe it should be brought up to the court that bg checks are unconstitutional based on the 8th and 9th amendments to the constitution. The same test in Smith should be applied. I would accept a bg check scheme that

1) has a time limit measured from the release from incarceration rather than conviction date. This measurement is necessary to ensure the time limit is effective because if the time limit is ten years and the measurement is time from offense. A person who just spent ten years in prison could get out without having to worry about a bg check. Inversely, a person who only gets probation would have to deal with bg checks for the next ten years. This doesn’t seem appropriate and is likely why they started asking if you EVER have been convicted. I would agree with a scheme that incorporated both and took the later of the two though.

2) has categorical checks that apply to the employers business (such as SO offense, theft offense, violent offense, etc.) This should be conducted by the bg check agency and labelled on the application for employment. Once the bg check is conducted, the agency only submits to the employer offenses that match the question on the application. The reason for this is because it is a legitimate concern not to have someone convicted of theft working at a bank or an SO convicted of an offense involving children working at a school. It is not legitimate to refuse a job at a factory or production facility that has no children present to said SO, nor is it legitimate to refuse a former thief a job in which there is security and the person is not handling money.

3) removed the ability of landlords and property managers to conduct bg checks. There is no legitimate reason for this.

4) Allow for waivers on a case by case basis. For instance, it’s a legitimate interest to prevent anyone convicted of a crime in law enforcement. Licensing professions should still conduct review boards for character flaws as they do now.

Hos is it still possible for them not to accept that all the false data in the 2003 decision. This decision is the bases for all the current sex offender Laws. Could it be that if SCOTUS Validates the Michigan Ruling Then the registry would legally fall into shambles?

The SO registry and all that goes with it is nothing more than a money making scheme. It’s complete madness.

I think it unfair for SCOTUS to only seek advice from the SG, the very same SG that could argue cases for the government before the court, before they decide to grant cert. If so then the lawyers for the Does should be able to put their two cents worth in too.

Most of us know damn good and well that the SG is not going to advise something of this magnitude in our behalf. We MUST keep this in the medias attention, however and whenever, and not let it slide into oblivion. This single case could quite possibly be the one that cracks the whole convoluted mess into pieces that even “all the king’s horses and all the king’s men cannot put together again.”

I think I can speak for all Texas registrants who’s case came years before the enactment of Texas’ SO laws (my case came 13 years prior) when I say that the most important thing we want to see is SCOTUS ruling that the registration requirement applied to people who’s conviction came before the enactment of their particular state’s SO laws violate EX POST FACTO! If they can find the guts to rule this way I can die happy man because I am indeed “In Search of Liberty”.

I dont understand any of this. Is this news good or bad?

If SCOTUS declines to hear Snyder, what does that mean for those of us who do not live in the 6th circuit? I live in the 11th where the court is loaded with Bible thumping so called Christians.

The Supreme Court did not grant a stay to the law, as the state requested. The 6th Circuit Court instructed the District Court judge to issue a new ruling in par with their decision way back in August 2016. However, the state is still enforcing this law that the 6th ruled unconstitutional. What is up with that?

What would happen if thousands of SO’s got together, and each one put in a certain amount of money, would we be able to hire out an awesome lawyer to help fight this cause

“Jeffrey B. Wall, is urging the U.S. Supreme Court not to grant Michigan’s Petition for a Writ of Certiorari.” Why is anyone aloud to urge the SCOTUS not to grant anything while not in session? If the SCOTUS lets any outside opinions sway their decision they have failed at their job!

Hopefully this will go well for those of us who are on the registry. The current rules and regulations are restrictive enough. To the point that many find it hard to live a normal life. It’s time for the light to shine on this injustice. And I am thankful for those are in and getting in on this fight.

1) SCOTUS allows groups, organizations and individuals to submit amicus briefs in support of or against the petitioner. It happens in pretty much every case before the court. IMO, they are rarely swayed one way or the other by amicus briefs, but they may provide a viewpoint from which the justices or their clerks have not considered the case.

2) In cases against states that have bearing on federal law (which Snyder certainly does, in many facets) SCOTUS will usually invite the solicitor general’s office to file an opinion. This case is not unusual in that regard, and it should not be taken as anything relevant to the case being specifically about sex offender registries.

3) Although I think most would agree that the SG’s office is taking a position we didn’t see coming, it is clear that their opposition to SCOTUS hearing the case is a strategic move intended to keep the registries in place. I personally feel that the feds are starting to see the writing on the wall and that SCOTUS could very well rule against MIchigan’s scheme and in effect render registries in their current form very dangerously close to unconstitutional. I still believe the justices will opt to take up the case. If the court make-up stays as it is through next term, I can see a 5-4 victory for the Does, and everyone on the registry.

I disagree that this is a good thing, this is a strategic move on the sgs part to prevent the damage from trickling into awa territory and to limit the results to the 6th circuit.

By SG Wall’s reasoning, he feels that if the case is not accepted, and if Michigan reverts to the standards put out by Smith v. Doe, then the court conditions would be resolved. The problem with that reasoning is that Smith v Doe would eliminate all restriction zones, all employment restrictions, all travel restrictions, even the need to actually show up at the police station but send in a registration card in a manner reminiscent of a pleasant Tuesday morning filling out a Price Club application.

Don’t see that happening. This case will be heard by SCOTUS, or Michigan’s gonna have to do a whole lot of ‘splainin’ to the population.

Some justices at SCOTUS may even take this opportunity to attack Smith V. Doe through the Snyder case by granting cert. Maybe set an example as a: ” I told you so ”

It only takes 4 judges to grant cert. Two of the Smith dissenting judges are still on panel, I can see Kagan jumping on board since she is the justice assigned to the 6th court of appeals, Sotomayor may do so as well, Kennedy is disturbed by the fact that people are being punished post sentence, and Gorsuch doesn’t like the government having excessive regulatory powers as he dissented in U.S v. Nichols referencing sorna. He may well want to take jabs at the government’s regulatory sorna scheme in there as well, as a second round bout to U.S v. Nichols.

Could that be possible ?

Well, NARSOL seems like a good start down that road. I would think the effort would take millions. What about supporting an alternative Registry that didn’t have the intent to shame and isolate perpetrators through pubilc/work disclosure?

Robin, do you have a link to the potential fourth circuit case you just referred to?

There was no reply option to your reply of my post so I replied to you on this one. Indeed anything is possible and I see your point and I agree. But the precedence the court may take to prove a point as you stated ” see y’all they got it right ” that was not what I was getting at. What I meant was, can the court take on Snyder to overturn Smith if some of them feel they need to do so ? That is what I simply meant. They have overturn themselves before and may feel they need to do so or get at that opportunity this time around. Not for Snyder alone but for Smith as well. Is that even possible ?

Interesting rebuttal arguments you present throughout this thread Robin. Slowly changing my mind. So, instead of getting one knockout punch on registry etc via SCOTUS, it may take many body blows to undo it across the various circuit courts.

Many understandable folks want a knockout punch, but if it upsets the apple cart only to set things back…..hmmm

Question is will the registry ever go away or minimized enough for those requiring such actions through enough court filings?

Got it. Thank you.

I guess it is one apple at a time. This will initially be a precursor to undoing the registry all together ? That is my whole issue with registering. I can understand having to register with the county that pertains to me while I serve a court ordered probation sentence, heck, Even the Dept. of corrections of the State in which I’m from, has a public website where you can search for offenders in your area based even on criminal offense that are currently serving a sentence. Once you’re done with your probation sentence, you are no longer searchable in their data base. I finished my sentence quite a while ago, but I have to continue to register with not only 1 police agency(county) but another one as well(city) where they just take my photo. I have long finished my sentence, but still feel like I’m serving another probation sentence for life.

The only other way I could see the scotus taking this case to reaffirm would be to squash all these cases that are repeatedly popping up in writs over and over because state legislators see the need to constantly make unconsitutional laws based on conjecture. That would certainly stop much and reverse all these add on laws that usually increase crime due to instability not help to curb it.

That would free the court from having to hear many of the cases that are coming up through the system currently, and there are many. I imagine the scotus is aware of some of these other lawsuits that will most likely be appealed to the supreme court so they have an opportunity to address them now if they desire. I am with Robin though, unless its for what I mentioned above, we dont want the scotus getting involved.

For the sake of argument, let’s say scotus hears Does v Snyder and strikes down much of its requirements. That then becomes law of the land. What prevents Bubba Leroy Justice, Sheriff of Jeffersonian County Alabama from arresting an offender for violating a provision that was struck down? There never seems to be any accountability to officials breaking the rules.

Even though I don’t advocate uprooting your family and moving to escape the problem, I often see questions from registrants or their family members in regards to the states with the most lax S.O. registry laws. It’s a hard question to answer, and I would recommend they stay where they are and keep fighting for change, as even a state with more lax laws could eventually enact harsher laws. So moving could become a very bad decision. However, if the Supreme Court does indeed deny Cert to Michigan, and someone is sure they want to move, any state within the 6th Circuit’s jurisdiction just might be an ideal place to relocate.

I agree with you on this point. I have read many Supreme Court decisions to understand how their process works. I also recently read their guidelines for granting cert on their website.

The court basically looks at three possible issues when deciding whether to grant cert: 1) Did the lower court improperly apply the legal standard? In other words, did they get it wrong? 2) Are there other cases in other states that have a different result in the lower courts 3) Will this case affect federal law?

While point number 1 is not a valid reason in this case, points 2 and 3 definitely are. There are multiple federal and state cases, some of which are resolved and some still pending, that have wide disagreements on what parts of a registry law are constitutional and what parts are not. Furthermore, on point 3, this affects the AWA significantly as the 6th circuit’s ruling effectively made the AWA unconstitutional in its present form. Michigan is now unable to comply with the AWA due to a federal court decision. This is a big deal and presumably the same reason the court granted cert on Trump’s Executive Order concerning the travel ban.

In my personal opinion, the court is also likely to look at the congestion of the courts in this matter. There has been and continues to be multiple fights brought in court concerning the registry. This ties up the courts’ dockets. The Supreme Court may see a need to resolve this problem once and for all to eliminate or severely reduce these constitutional challenges. If the court fails to grant cert, more cases similar to this one will end up petitioning for cert. It would be logical for the court to resolve this issue now rather than wait.

Having lower courts continue to use the 6th circuit’s precedent in every jurisdiction as arguments are presented is effectively allowing the laws to stand against precedent until a challenge is brought. That’s not how our judicial system is supposed to work.

After reading the actual decision in this case from the 6th circuit, I actually agree with avoiding the Supreme Court on this one. There is likely a better case being brought up that would have far more reaching effects.

The decision stops its judgment after it declares that the SORA is punitive as it applies to Michigan. This stopped the legislature because it effectively makes the plaintiffs no longer a party to the other issues brought up and therefore unable to fight them because the ex post facto decision takes them completely off of the registry. As the decision points out, this has been happening all over the country. My state of Indiana declared it punitive in 2009 with Wallace v. State of Indiana. Since my conviction was in 2010, it doesn’t really apply to me unless Indiana tries to make it worse. This is true for thousands of registrants in the country who had later convictions.

At this point, for proper SCOTUS review, we need a case to bring up the 8th amendment first and foremost using the language that compares registration to probation/parole, but I feel the argument that would have even greater weight is an argument stating it’s a bill of attainder. This is one argument I have yet to see in our courts. The argument that is presented to SCOTUS should also declare the AWA and the IML unconstitutional as well. Packingham brings up the argument of first amendment rights as well since Kennedy used the word “parks” when speaking about protected activities.

I found the 4th circuit brief from the petitioner Robin was referring to earlier as well. This seems like a case ripe for a SCOTUS challenge because it challenges the registry on many aspects as a whole. I do wish that it brought up the eighth amendment and the bill of attainder though.

Link: https://www.ncrsol.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/1-Complaint.pdf

My only wonder on this is when will Federal law be tackled on this issue (just as you have noted)? They are states issues, but Federal law needs to be addressed also.

Just so you all know, the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals (considered the most conservative appeals court in the country) ruled residency restrictions are constitutional in a case from Texas even if applied expo facto. So two different appeals court have ruled opposite opinions. The attorney in this case will be petitioning (if not already has done so) the supreme court since two appeals courts have issued two different opinions.

OK, I’m one of those who was hoping SCOTUS would take this on and deal a major blow to registries, but now I also see what you are saying, Robin.

I guess my real reason for thinking it would be good for them to grant cert is that perhaps the justices, Kennedy among them, have since realized that they decided Smith with 1) grossly over-generalized falsehoods and 2) incorrect assumptions about the registries effectiveness. It seemed that this case would finally allow them to correct the issue. It wouldn’t be the first time the Supreme Court has corrected an earlier error.

Sometimes I spend too much time in Sweet Dream Land. *sigh*

For RWVNRAL, Two questions: 1) as to the Alaska case, i.e., Smith v. Doe, did not the Alaska Supreme Court come back and rule that state’s SO registry unconstitutional after the Smith decision? 2) see Smith v Doe U.S. @ 87, 100 & 101. The court said: “…The Act, on its face, does not require these updates to be made in person. The holding that the registration system is parallel to probation or supervised release is rejected because, in contrast to probationers and supervised releases, offenders subject to the Act are free to move where they wish and to live and work as other citizens, with no supervision. While registrants must inform the authorities after they change their facial features, borrow a car, or seek psychiatric treatment, they are not required to seek permission to do so…” Ok, so, in the Country of Texas this is the exact situation we have with the state’s SO registration. It is supervised release. An RSO is required to report in person either quarterly or annually. You must have permission to move into a residence, permission to work certain jobs, report your auto, etc., all against what SCOTUS held in Smith. In Texas, there is no deference between regular parole rules and sex offender rules—they are both the same. If you are on a regular parole like for murderers, robbers, burglars, drug dealers etc., there is no reporting of your address, work, auto, residence change, etc., so my question is how does TX’s SO laws square with what SCOTUS held in Smith v Doe pages 87, 100 & 101?

“While registrants must inform the authorities after they change their facial features, borrow a car, or seek psychiatric treatment, they are not required to seek permission to do so…”

Why are we EVER required to ask permission? Probation is a waste of tax payer money. If you get 3 yrs of probation, if you get 6 months of probation, if you get ANY amount of probation, the IDEA in the mind of the court, probation dept AND the public (thanks to the aforementioned) is that you are dangerous to society for THAT specific length of time. HORSESH*T!
I just met with my P.O. today as I have to only once per month now and I just LOVE when they ask “So how’s everything going?”
Are you kidding me? How’s my miserable life with my miserable job (that you approved) and the miserable ROOMING HOUSE I have to live in (which you also had to approve)? Oh, just dandy! Please don’t ever release me from probation. I love this sh*t.

Sorry, In Search of Liberty, I know that’s off topic from what you asked but I guess I’m “triggered” by the mention of “supervised release” because if we’re NOT actually INCARCERATED, we should not have to be on any “supervised release” which comes to an end anyway and then they don’t care what we do. But until next year in September, I can’t even shop at a mall. ABSURD!!
After September, I can shop anywhere I want. How does that fit in with their scripted narrative of “If you go to a mall and there’s a young high school aged girl there in tight little shorts….”

Yeah and? Same scenario can happen AFTER probation. Duh.

This reply here Robin helps immensely put into context your reply below where you use “dicta” in a reply on taking the registry out altogether (July 12, 2017 at 11:51 am).

Just need more courts to agree it is not regulatory, but actually has a punishment aspect to it as you say where some have already.

In Search of Liberty, in my case here in Texas, actually being off probation demands more restrictions of me than when I was on probation. Late in my probation, my probation conditions were changed (and signed by the judge) where I was able go anywhere I wanted as long as I had no intention of making contact with a minor. Now, starting 09/01, in a few local small cities, I will be completely banished from even setting foot in the city limits after the proximity/residency restrictions are adopted. Several local cities stated they will adopt these restrictions. So I have more restrictions off probation than on probation. Talk about a violation of my constitutional rights…

The endless stories of all this registry madness just rends the heart. It is incomprehensible that this is happening in the USA! Truly “the old gray mare ain’t what she used to be!”

I am not sure you are serious.

The USA has always had a group of people to oppress. Our plight hardly compares to what the Native American tribes had to endure, or the slaves of the pre-civil war era. Even the African Americans of the post civil war era to civil rights era can show evidence of much harsher treatment than what we are going through. We can compare ourselves to that when men in white sheets come knocking on our doors at night.

America is actually doing better now in this area concerning civil rights, but it is still inexcusable, especially in this modern time, that registry laws are being used on a whole class of people. Have we learned nothing from history?

FRED,

In part, that is my point. This is supposed to be the nation that has overcome past “demons” to move beyond the oppressing of it’s citizens. We lead the fight in human rights (?), yet our citizens are some of the most incarcerated in the world. We call ourselves a new breed…but the fact is we are riding the same old mare! As an old preacher used to say, “if we have learned anything from history, it’s that we haven’t learned anything from history.” I stand by my statement that the current registry laws are “heart rending.” Personally, I cannot help but feel a profound sadness that still today there is such a tolerance for oppression…and perhaps it is even more vehement now.

I thought that is what you might had been getting at. I agree. The U.S. is a nation of hypocrites, blinded by American exceptionalism. We are getting better, but we still have a ways to go. It is a struggle to remain patient though, it’s 2017…CMON!

Florida tries to out-do every other state in terms of how miserable law enforcement tries to make the lives of registered men and women a living hell! IF the SCOTUS decides to hear the case, I wonder if there will be an amicus curai who can somehow incorporate what has come out since SCOTUS ruled on Alaska’s Doe v Smith, in that the so-called ‘statistic’ the Feds used to convince SCOTUS that registered people are ‘danagerous and a high risk of reoffending’ was literanlly taken out of context, even according to the very man who wrote that statistic years earlier and admitted it did not mean what the Feds twisted minds said it did.

As I recall the same Doe (Doe -v- Alaska) who initiated the federal court route challenged it again on possibly different grounds again on the state court route to the Supreme Court of Alaska.

IN A NUTSHELL:
I believe the decision ONLY applies to pre-1996 defendants in state or those who move to Alaska as ex-post facto and unconstitutional parting ways with the stare decisis of the United States Supreme Courts analysis in Doe -v- Alaska.

Important caveat: I recall this from memory so please double check!

DOJ urges SCOTUS not to review Sixth Circuit panel decision finding retroactive application of Michigan sex offender law unconstitutional.

Now that the Solictor General has urged SCOTUS not to review; is there a timeline for the court to make a decision to review or not to review? The original date was back in March; which is now past.

Does anyone have an opinion as to how SCOTUS may consider the PA Supreme Court’s ruling that relieved three defendants of SORNA compliance who were required to register under Megan’s Law? The court said defendants were entitled to only those laws applicable to their cases when their pleas were accepted by the court. Doesn’t this bolster the “congress shall pass no law abridging contracts” along with Michigan’s ex-post-facto ruling?

This is where ex past facto decisions come into play. If a jurisdiction has declared their registry as punitive, then nobody currently on it can be held to a new stricter law. Also, if they change the law to be more lax, they cannot revert back and have it apply to any registrant that was on the lax laws. This is probably one of the deciding factors in Ohio right now. If they pass the lax laws and being in the 6th circuit, they can never go back.

Good read here on what SCOTUS is doing and not doing

Sex offender consequences in the Supreme Court – what’s ahead?

Sex offender consequences in the Supreme Court – what’s ahead?

I was reading the solicitor general’s recommendation not to grant certiorari.

Kennedy’s remarks were mentioned about the high recidivism, but I must have missed the rebutting to that myth.

The U.S. Supreme court takes a 3 month vacation from the end of June to the 1st of October. So, I’m guessing we are not going to hear from them until October on whether they will grant review on Snyder or not grant review.

http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/16-768-snyder-v.-doe-supp-brief-of-petitions.pdf